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Bullboard - Stock Discussion Forum Theratechnologies Inc T.TH

Alternate Symbol(s):  THTX

Theratechnologies Inc. is a Canada-based clinical-stage biopharmaceutical company. The Company is focused on the development and commercialization of therapies addressing unmet medical needs. It markets prescription products for people with human immunodeficiency viruses (HIV) in the United States. The Company's research pipeline focuses on specialized therapies addressing unmet medical needs... see more

TSX:TH - Post Discussion

Theratechnologies Inc > Answer about the linker
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Post by jfm1330 on Mar 08, 2021 10:02pm

Answer about the linker

I spent a few hours today doing internet research to try to understand what is the linker used in TH1902 and TH1904. What I knew is the fact that it was supposed to be pH sensitive and since the intracellular pH of cancer cells is more acidic than the pH of the serum in the bloodstream, the linker is almost not cleaved in the bloodstream, but totally cleaved once inside the cancer cells.

That being said, as much as I said here that Lutathera was an example of an approved PDC that was giving me confidence, there are significant differences between Lutathera and TH1902. In Lutathera, the cytotoxic agent is a Lu177, a radioistope that does not need to be free inside the cancer cell to be active, so no need for a linker that is selectively cleavable inside the cancer cell. That lead me to look closer to another PDC that is very similar to TH1902 and especially TH1904. This PDC is AEZS 108, also called Zoptarelin. This PDC, a LHRH analog carrying one molecule of doxorubicin, went into phase III and the results released in 2017 showed Zoptarelin provided no improvment over treatment with doxorubicin alone.

I read in a scientific article that the reason for the failure in phase III of Zoptarelin may be due to the fact that its linker (glutaryl linker) was not stable enough outside of the cancer cells. Read this: 

Unfortunately, AEZS-108 could not achieve its primary endpoint in clinical phase III studies on endometrial cancer, which was caused by the lack of a significant difference in the median period of overall survival of patients treated with Zoptrex™ as compared to patients treated with doxorubicin []. The main reason for this might be the poor enzymatic stability of the conjugate in circulation. It has been shown that the ester bond can be hydrolyzed rapidly by carboxylesterases in presence of mouse (t1/2 = 19 min) and human serum (t1/2 = 126 min) []. Taking this into account, drug-linkers with higher enzymatic stability under physiological conditions might help to overcome this weakness and ensure antitumor activity without toxic side effects. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6320914/

So, reading that, worried me a bit. That's whay I wanted to understand what TH1902 linker is, the mechanism by which it is cleaved and if it allowed for a cleavage that will really happen inside the cancer cells in real humans with real tumors. Remember, Zoptarelin linker passed all the tests in the pre-clinical phase. Then, even in human trials, in phase I and phase II, no obvious problem was detected. The reason for that is that it is impossible to directly monitor the fate of the PDC in the human body, so it's impossible to really monitor the behavior of the linker in the bloodstream, just outside of the cancer cells in the tumor environement, and inside the cancer cells.

To vizualize Zoptarelin and its glutaryl receptor, look at this link:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=5942387_Beilstein_J_Org_Chem-14-930-g007.jpg

Now, if you want to see the linker of TH1902 look at page 62 of the Investor Presentation at this link:

https://www.theratech.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Investor_Day_Nasdaq_Oct_23-1.pdf

You will see that the linkers are different, but also similar. In the case of TH1902, insted of a simple glutaryl linker, it uses a dimethyl glutaryl linker. What needs to be understood here, is that both linkers are not cleaved by the higher acidity inside the cancer cells, as I thought previously, but by esterases enzymes that have a higher activity under mild acidity, like it's the case inside a cancer cell (pH 6.0-6.8), instead of pH 7.4 in the bloodstream. So in the bloodstream, the cleavage by esterases is very slow, but much faster inside the cancer cells. That being said, from my understanding, with my backgound in biochemistry, (I found no reference for that explaination), the dimethyl glutaryl linker used in TH1902 would be more stable because the two added methyl groups on the central carbon atom make it sterically hindered. That means that these added groups, from a 3-D standpoint, partially block the ideal access of the enzyme to the ester bond between docetaxel or doxorubycin and the linker, that the enzyme would cleave. Since the 3-D access is not ideal, the rate of cleavage is slower, hence the ester bond more stable.

This is my understanding not having access to a reference with an explaination. If I am right it means that the worry about the linker not being stable enough outside of cancer cells is not warranted. But being more stable also means a slower cleavage rate inside the cancer cells. About that we know that in vitro and in vivo, in xenograft animal model, docetaxel is active, so cleaved inside the cancer cells. Now, we have to hope it will be the same inside human cancer cells in real tumors in real humans. That being said, it would be a good idea for the company to explain clearly how their linker work and why they are confident that it will work as needed in real cancer patients. A linker that will work as needed is critical to a successful jump from mice to humans.
Comment by SPCEO1 on Mar 08, 2021 11:24pm
Once again, thank you for your hard work on this. Hopefully, qwerty or bfw can add to these fantastic you have put together for us.
Comment by SPCEO1 on Mar 08, 2021 11:59pm
Once again, thank you for your hard work on this. Hopefully, qwerty or bfw can add to these fantastic you have put together for us.
Comment by Wino115 on Mar 09, 2021 8:34am
Really value-added research JFM!  I've had same question and I believe Spatrap mentioned this trial as a warning about getting too ahead of ourselves.  I did very (very) basic research thinking that science has moved on and learned.  That PDC v ADC primer that Scarlet put up a while back also mentioned some advances made on the linker and overall understanding of PDCs in the ...more  
Comment by jfm1330 on Mar 09, 2021 11:52am
Another thing I learned in all my readings yesterday is that taxanes in general and docetaxel in particular is almost insoluble in water. The formulation for the drug contains 13% ethanol and polysorbate 80, an emulsifier. So another advantage of a PDC is to eliminate the need for dissolving agent for the drug since once chemically linked to the peptide, it's the overall solubility of the ...more  
Comment by jfm1330 on Mar 09, 2021 12:46pm
Just to make things clearer about the linkers. This is the one used in zoptarelin (glutaryl) https://spectrabase.com/compound/2hThxt1mJSH And this is the one used in TH1902 (dimethyl glutaryl) https://spectrabase.com/compound/6JqpwoZbYZK These are the diacid forms (not linked). So the two added methyl groups in the middle of the molecule (the V shape up), makes it harder for the catalytic ...more  
Comment by jfm1330 on Mar 09, 2021 1:22pm
Another thing I forgot to mentionned yesterday. Did you see in the quoted excerpt from an article about the Zoptarelin failure that they made stability testing of the glutaryl linker in human serum and in mouse serum. The difference in the half-life of the linker is stunning, 19 minutes in mouse serum and 126 minutes in human serum. We cannot draw broad conclusions out of that, but the big ...more  
Comment by Wino115 on Mar 09, 2021 1:47pm
Interesting. The only thing I recall is in one of the recent conferences, Levesque or Marsolais let it slip out that the fast track was because of what the FDA saw in the preclinical work and when they spoke of animal testing, they used the term "tests in different animals" we did and it made me think they not only did small mice, but some other animals. Maybe they misspoke, but I ...more  
Comment by scarlet1967 on Mar 09, 2021 1:51pm
I think they tried on CFO since he was stuck in his home.
Comment by Wino115 on Mar 09, 2021 2:07pm
Ahhh yes, the CFO animal.  I've seen them caged in the zoo.  Just pacing back and forth looking down....  A useful requirement for CFO job - "Acceptable for preclinical human testing"...
Comment by jfm1330 on Mar 09, 2021 2:11pm
All their pre-clinical data published up ti now was on mice.
Comment by jfm1330 on Aug 13, 2021 7:13pm
As you will see with tese messages that I sent back in March, I made extensive searches back then being convinced that dimethyl glutaryl was the linker used in TH1902. I looked back at that. Reading articles it seems that both succinyl and glutaryl are pretty easily cleavable. So forget the idea that succinyl is uncleavable. I was misled by a bad reference about succinic anhydride stating it was ...more  
Comment by SPCEO1 on Aug 13, 2021 7:32pm
I have to believe there is some confusion here as it is hard to believe they would mess something like that up.
Comment by jfm1330 on Aug 13, 2021 9:42pm
I agree that it's hard to believe that they would have made such a mistake. Finally I will send you an email so you can forward me the R&D day presentation. I want to see it again because to me, back then, it was clear it was about TH1902. At least that's my recollection. If it's not, then I would like to know why they chose the succinyl linker and why they think it is more stable ...more  
Comment by SPCEO1 on Aug 13, 2021 9:52pm
Perhaps to no one's surprise, I mis-spelled my e-mail address in the earlier post. It's Rleonard@stewardshippartners.com
Comment by jfm1330 on Aug 13, 2021 9:59pm
Yes. It bumped. I found the good one on your website.
Comment by jfm1330 on Aug 13, 2021 11:14pm
Thank you SPCEO, I got the document. Now I have to agree with you, this was poor communication from Thera. They show the linker in TH1904 section, and I assumed it was the same for TH1902, which it now seems it was not. But why have they published the linker of TH1904 and not the linker of TH1902, especially if it is really different? If they really use two different linkers, now I would like to ...more  
Comment by Wino115 on Aug 14, 2021 8:20am
Yes, of the unknown factors presenting risk in the human trial, the linker is a significant one.  I would suggest given your background you should ask Marsolais directly, or via Leah.  That is all public info so a valid investor question. I would bet if you compose the right question he will respond via email and clear it up.  You would understand his explanation best given your ...more  
Comment by qwerty22 on Aug 14, 2021 8:41am
It's really not a high risk linker. From what I can tell they've picked a linker chemistry that's been used for decades in many setting beyond just oncology. From the offset you really can't guarantee your setup will work exactly how you expect it to so you test it. They've done that in mice. In my view the chemistry of this is pretty much derisked I don't know how th1902 ...more  
Comment by palinc2000 on Aug 14, 2021 9:47am
Wino Are you serious? You want Jfm to tell Mardolais and all which linker they should use....You have more confidence in Jfm than in the scientific team and advisors at Thtx ....
Comment by Wino115 on Aug 14, 2021 8:58pm
Of course not. I merely suggested he go to the source to get an answer to his confusion on the linker. On the contrary, I am suggesting Marsolais not only has the answer but can explain the rationale or the fact it's standard and well tested, etc. Heceill no doubt clear up the confusion .
Comment by jfm1330 on Aug 14, 2021 12:19pm
OK. I foundother infos that could help a bit about the linker situation. In this article on Table 3 you will see the description of two candidate PDC. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5942387/#R67 One of the two is ANG1005, and it says that it is using the succinyl linker. So who is behind this PDC, here you have it, Angiochem. Who is the founder of Angiochem? Richard Beliveau. Who ...more  
Comment by realitycheck4u on Aug 15, 2021 10:30am
This post has been removed in accordance with Community Policy
Comment by realitycheck4u on Aug 15, 2021 10:31am
This post has been removed in accordance with Community Policy
Comment by SPCEO1 on Aug 15, 2021 11:40am
I asked the CMO to comment on this issue and his only statement was the article is correct. Also, JFM has indicated that once he saw the October 23, 2019 presenatation I sent him, he realized the part he remembered (good memory by the way JFM) was not attributed to TH-1902 but TH-1904. So, while there are always going to be questions about the linker, etc., at a minimum until we get actual results ...more  
Comment by jfm1330 on Aug 15, 2021 12:37pm
Sorry, I also looked thouroughly at the patent, and nowhere it talks about TH1902 or TH1904. Like with any patent, it is very broad. They cover a very large number of peptide sequences, cytotoxic drugs, and also a very wide array of possible linkers. But the two linkers mentionned in the embodiments (which are the preferred choices out of all the possibilities described before in the patent) are ...more  
Comment by scarlet1967 on Aug 15, 2021 12:51pm
"Not good for an investor with sufficient scientific background that wants to understand, as much as possible, every aspect of their drug candidate. That to me is a real communication problem and don't tell me it's too technical to really matter. The devil is often in the details." It is getting comical, so please enlighten me how many of those 75% retail exciting shareholders ...more  
Comment by qwerty22 on Aug 15, 2021 12:56pm
The facts are in the scientific paper. Start from those facts. Don't start from what is in the patent, that exists to cover all the bases. Don't start from what you believed was true for the last 6 months. The company has no obligation to clear up your thought process. They have an obligation to clearly state the facts and the structure of the molecule is clearly stated in the paper.
Comment by palinc2000 on Aug 15, 2021 5:21pm
He is not so much intetested in facts as he is inteterested in getting attention snd praise from non science poster. If he wanted to get the facts straighr he would simply silently e mail or talk to management. quote=qwerty22] The facts are in the scientific paper. Start from those facts. Don't start from what is in the patent, that exists to cover all the bases. Don't start from what ...more  
Comment by qwerty22 on Aug 15, 2021 11:45am
JFM is running with another one of his incorrect assumptions and it's leading him on wild goose chases. He's assuming toxicity can only come from the PDC breaking in the blood and releasing its toxin. That's not true. The PDC could be targeted to healthy cells ANG1005 targets low-density lipoprotein receptor-related protein 1 (LRP-1), that's what it uses to cross the BBB ...more  
Comment by qwerty22 on Aug 15, 2021 12:00pm
The actual evidence rather than JFM's assumption. Here is the preclinical for ANG1005 (when it was called GRN1005) https://mct.aacrjournals.org/content/molcanther/11/2/308.full.pdf Go to the pharmacokinetics section of the paper. The result is exactly the same for ANG1005 as TH1902. It does not break in the blood. JFM's assumptions are wrong again.
Comment by qwerty22 on Aug 15, 2021 12:15pm
One mistake I made. This isn't a preclinical paper it's human phase 1. So when they say it doesnt break in blood, it's human blood. I haven't checked if JFM is right that the linker in ANG1005 is the same as the linker in TH1902. If it is then the learnings of ANG1005 are actually the complete opposite to what JFM is saying. ANG1005 looks to actually further derisk the linker ...more  
Comment by jfm1330 on Aug 15, 2021 12:12pm
I agree it looks complicated, and in a way, it is, because what I thought was simple before (i.e., the same linker for TH1902 and Th1904) is not. Why two different linkers? I don't know. Also, the succinyl linker, which seems to be the linker used in TH1902, is also used in another PDC related to Richard Beliveau, ANG1002, and this PDC is generating a relatively high toxicity linked to the ...more  
Comment by qwerty22 on Aug 14, 2021 8:25am
"this was poor communication from Thera. They show the linker in TH1904 section, and I assumed it was the same for TH1902"   lol, what I tell you this guy just can't admit he's wrong, thtx is responsible for his own mistaken assumptions! As for the rest of this post. JFM is confused.  That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the molecule. It just means . ...more  
Comment by scarlet1967 on Aug 14, 2021 9:04am
So as per your previous posts the linker wasn't cleavable the next post it's cleavable the next post it's not safe the next post it's sort of safe as it is stable enough due to rapid internalization. Again folks who run this show are experience biochemist, oncologist, some working with peptides for decades for various reasons. If you really think these folks are so confused then ...more  
Comment by Wino115 on Mar 09, 2021 1:24pm
Ours is far more beautiful a picture.  In all seriousness, this really was an important piece of the puzzle and your explanation is very helpful and a key component to whether this thing works well or not.  It's really the essential piece along with how well it homes in on Sortilin since we know the toxin is the toxin.  This makes me add a bit more to the probability of success, ...more  
Comment by Spartrap on Mar 09, 2021 2:13pm
I remember having this conversation on TH's linker vs zoptarelin here a while back, and my idea about the 2 added methyl groups, classically bringing chemical stability, was the same. I like even more your analysis about the esterases' pockets. On another angle, my idea is there's more to the zoptarelin failure than just the linker. We have to consider the LHRH receptor is only ...more  
Comment by Spartrap on Mar 09, 2021 2:23pm
ah the link seems bogus.. maybe this one'll work for some time: https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/48203874/0303-7207_2883_2990065-520160820-21764-1wsmtn2.pdf?1471722342=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DReceptor_mediated_internalization_of_LHR.pdf&Expires=1615321115&Signature=IOA1TFj1szVpkvtZEF3QPhHw2yDxZYY1ONqM7Ls2Yk7xvf4xiZUzQMeOYi9JY ...more  
Comment by qwerty22 on Mar 09, 2021 3:07pm
Speaking more generally what you highlight here is a general problem in biotech. Not much energy/resourses is devoted to understanding failure. Nobody is actually going to spend much money doing the studies to really understand what lies behind failure of a program if it isn't going to continue so most of the ideas about failure are assumptions based on indirect evidence. Those assumptions get ...more  
Comment by realitycheck4u on Mar 10, 2021 4:51pm
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