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Bullboard - Stock Discussion Forum Western Copper and Gold Corp T.WRN

Alternate Symbol(s):  WRN

Western Copper and Gold Corporation is a Canada-based exploration stage company. The Company is engaged in developing the Casino Project. The Casino Project is a copper-gold mining project in Yukon, Canada. The Casino porphyry copper-gold-molybdenum deposit is located in west central Yukon, in the northwest trending Dawson Range mountains, approximately 300 kilometers (km) northwest of the... see more

TSX:WRN - Post Discussion

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Post by EvenSteven27 on Jul 20, 2022 8:03am

Macro factors

COPPER AND IRON ORE DETERMINE RIO TINTO’S PROFITS – NOT $1 BILLION IN AUSTRALIAN TAXES

UPDATED 20 JUL 2022

Key points:

  • Rio Tinto has just been fined and charged by the Australian taxman 
  • However, even $600 million, or the total $1 billion, charge isn't really material 
  • Rio is so large that these sorts of sums, over a decade, are rounding errors 

Rio Tinto (NYSE: RIO) stock is pretty much unmoved on the story that they've had to pay $600 million and change to the Australian tax office. That brings their total dunning by the taxman up to $1 billion. The reason that this hasn't moved that stock price is because – vast sum though it is – it's not really material to a company of Rio Tinto‘s size. Which is an interesting and useful comment on just how large RIO actually is. This also explains why problems at the Serbian lithium project, previously announced, simply didn't change the RIO stock price – it's just not a large enough project to make a difference to such a behemoth.

 

The actual story is that Rio Tinto ran the sales of certain of its Australian sourced commodity production through a sales office in Singapore. But tax on the profits – and to a certain extent the royalty taxes on the Ricardian rents as well – would be based upon the profits made in Australia. By upping the margin assigned to the Singapore retailing operation those profits, thus taxes, were reduced. After something of a long fight that allocation has been successfully challenged. So, Rio Tinto shareholders are poorer by that accumulated and overall $1 billion.

But the issue goes back to 2010. So we're talking about under $100 million a year. Rio's profits are at the $20 billion a year level – it's variable so no more detail than that required – and so it's really not all that material a figure. O.5%, sure, a billion is a billion but 0.5% is the sort of number that's within accounting error levels.

Rio Tinto Stock Price
Rio Tinto Stock Price from IG

Also Read: How To Invest In Metals Stocks

If the depredations – or entirely due societal contributions – of the taxman don't particularly matter to Rio Tinto's stock price then what does? The correct answer being the iron ore and copper prices. That's the majority of the Rio business and those are therefore what really matter.

At which point we can think either way about Rio Tinto's prospects. Perhaps the Chinese construction boom – the thing really driving the Pacific iron ore trade – is going to come to an end as all the developers go bust. Well, maybe, and that would certainly be a negative for Rio. On the other hand we might think that India is about to go through that same Chinese development process and keep the iron ore cycle going.

We can also think about the copper price. The EV and renewables revolution is certainly increasing demand for copper. We might be at the start of the supercycle there, certainly some are predicting it. On the other hand copper has come down at least 30% off its recent peaks on worries about inflation and the interest rate reaction to it – will central banks engineer a recession to kill off the inflation?

The real determinants of the Rio Tinto stock price therefore being these macroeconomic factors – which makes sense, the company is so large that it is really only macroeconomic factors which are going to affect it.

Comment by MetalMinded on Jul 20, 2022 9:29am
Exactly.  What I've been saying.  Macro economic factors are affecting WRN, RIO, Commodity prices, etc.  the strong dollar hurting metals prices is a big part of that factor.  The fundamentals of supply and demand have not changed and the world economy has not slowed so sufficiently to impact the story of a long term shortage of copper supply.  Patience is all that is ...more  
Comment by MetalMinded on Jul 20, 2022 9:55am
IMHO If you have cash and are not buying market dips in general market, and metals producers specifically, right now, you are nuts.  Yes, it may drop a little more, but I'm not trying to time the bottom (although I think we are close).  
Comment by GardenManman on Jul 20, 2022 10:41am
anyway, we missed the window for deal, yeah, they are tons of excuse, but we missed it. My original plan is that, sell it at May and setup by step to switch to Tech or medical stocks, actually all missed. Frankly, any prices I can take on deal, leave it ASAP.
Comment by GardenManman on Jul 20, 2022 10:42am
is it is a disaster investment.
Comment by Heywood_Silvers on Jul 20, 2022 12:18pm
True, we missed the window for a "day-traders delight" quick buyout.  And, haven't you noticed (small smile on my face) that all the hot money has flown away?  We are right back to where we were pre-RIO buy-in announcement. But, as a consolation prize, the buyout, when it occurs, will be more lucrative than the quickie some were hoping for earlier in the year.  Plus ...more  
Comment by GardenManman on Jul 20, 2022 12:33pm
haha , Heywood, for the first time, I read your whole post because your post always so long and no nutrition. yes, I am day trader and speculator, you are investor, what a joke.haha
Comment by MetalMinded on Jul 20, 2022 1:51pm
WRN didn't miss any window for buyout excpet maybe yours.  
Comment by GardenManman on Jul 20, 2022 2:37pm
metal, last time you already express the same point, but failure is failure, we can't deny it which we missed the window at May. And of course, you always can find some excuse to cover this failure, so 16 years passed, you always can find new excuse for next decade. Actually Paul never give an excuse and explain why Rio do not strike the deal and what is the exact condition which we can't ...more  
Comment by GardenManman on Jul 20, 2022 2:52pm
everytime I express some complaint to company, always some person out for covering and make excuse, I don't know which ground you stand, you just can make things more slow and waste more time.
Comment by Moneymann on Jul 20, 2022 4:37pm
Waste of time.. Garden.. Move along, good opportunities out there. Nothing will happen here, not all Management s fault but they have made good except few here repeating the tape.
Comment by GardenManman on Jul 20, 2022 10:28pm
money, yes, many Directors with shining experience, especially superhero vitton, didn't see his ability to make the deal done, overvalued person. Paul work hard, but we have no good results so far, especially SP even can't keep the level of Rio's price tag.
Comment by cashworx on Jul 21, 2022 1:27am
This post has been removed in accordance with Community Policy
Comment by Moneymann on Jul 21, 2022 4:38am
Rio is heading to Different direction, their investment here is just peanuts. New feasibility made it worse. Low copper and gold production. Take whatever thrown to you and get out. Yukon is not investable.most Here are bagholding since. Years. There are some Other better gold plays if you want to insist on yukon. Loot at Alexco, dead Blow.
Comment by Sooner on Jul 21, 2022 6:15am
"Rio is heading in different direction" - when did you get put on Rio's strategy team? Get a clue - and please chart out WRN vs about any other junior explorer or for that matter and producer....EVERYONE is down!  Seems like Clark is the only one posting rationale thought recently....Rio is NOT going to pay $6 usd when their share price is down 50% over the prior couple ...more  
Comment by Moneymann on Jul 21, 2022 6:35am
All good. Good luck.
Comment by MetalMinded on Jul 21, 2022 7:37am
100% Sooner.  The drop in share price is due to macro factors.  The deal is not delayed or off because of the commodity prices.  If RIO was that short sighted, they would have gone out of business long ago.  They work their deals they way they due, not on anyone in this board's timeline.  Just because some here hoped they'd make a bazillion dollars overnight or on ...more  
Comment by jclarke042 on Jul 21, 2022 8:10am
In fairness many of us, myself included, heard Dale say "I don't think they'll need that long to make up their minds," and thought no way we'd be at....$1.32 right now. Based on that, some frustration/disillusionment might be in order.
Comment by Sooner on Jul 21, 2022 8:43am
Yes - correct! Myself included Clark  - clearly Dale was WAY off base and didn't know what he was talking about and didn't understand the way Rio works!  He personally set very unreasonable expectations and what he said immediately after the Rio announcement was way out of line...bordering on ignorance and or misleading information...I'll let you decide which! spare me ...more  
Comment by Marine2 on Jul 21, 2022 11:43am
IMO, One last date in November for a sit down with Rio ! This will be the time to see where we go from there,, buyout or onward. Always darkest, worst timing, sh$t on a stick, then a bidding war breaks out.  We "could be closest to a buy out" then we know ? M2
Comment by GardenManman on Jul 21, 2022 8:18pm
metal, don't overthink Rio, Rio seems a big guy in mining. If you put it into big international picture, it's revenue, market capital just a regular guy. In mining industry, Rio maybe a big guy which sometimes will bully junior mine, that's why wrn made a limitation on their 8% investment, and "big guy' also had been blackmailed by Mongolia, so, don't over think Rio, they ...more  
Comment by Moneymann on Jul 21, 2022 10:04pm
Newmont is not moving Coffee , Government is not moving simple mining legislation, they are moving at turtle speed with infrastructure, still no energy investments Not even a single renewable..to bring a bulldozer either you need helicopter or permit over land takes 4 months .  management are not buying either to show their confidence except Ken.  Wait for tax loss , rinse and repeat , ...more  
Comment by MetalMinded on Jul 22, 2022 8:45am
We'll except that little thing called a road that's actually under construction.  
Comment by Sooner on Jul 22, 2022 11:16am
Exactly! Not sure exactly what he expects....to turn Yukon into an industrialized region overnight with infrastructure of a modern city?????   i"m beginning to wonder if moneyman and garden are twins and from the same family as meathead666.... they both seem to be on Rio and Newmont bod ...and also a cabinet position within Yukon govt....
Comment by GardenManman on Jul 22, 2022 11:30am
haha, sooner, i am suspecting you are Paul. Frankly, based on history, I agree with Money's operation, he had visited the company in 2017, then felt uncomfortable and sold shares, this time during Pop, they did great block trade and shared operation in this forum, and also Freeport operations, they proved they did great operation.
Comment by GardenManman on Jul 22, 2022 11:33am
even metal666, I never "ignore" him, because I don't think some negative point can hurt the real value of one common listed company, negative point is one type of function to derisk.
Comment by Oakie1 on Jul 22, 2022 3:29pm
Garden, It is one thing for a person to just give some negative balance, and quite another for a troll to short a stock and then bad mouth the stock on a forum like this. In fact, it is against the law. I have no respect at all for trolls, and certainly would never say anything good about them, or even listen to them. Oakie 1
Comment by GardenManman on Jul 22, 2022 4:13pm
agree, it is fraud, but normally as WRN was always "undervalued", smart shorts investor will not choose this type of 1 dollar ticker to trade, gain/risk is not good choice for shorts, I means: gain limited, low volume means hard to cover.
Comment by Oakie1 on Jul 22, 2022 6:43pm
Garden, I see your point about WRN not being a good stock to short, but metal666 finally admitted that he had shorted WRN after he realized his gig was up with this forum. If you don't remember seeing his post where he made that admission I will go back and try to find it, but I definitely remember that he did admit it. Oakie 1
Comment by GardenManman on Jul 22, 2022 8:21pm
yes, meth666 seems admit that he short WRN, I am not sure whether it is real or just some argument comments. So, have you report it to SEC ? I think you don't. So even you don't report because it is a minor issue for his short. The major issue is that: whether management can give clear routine and schedule for the possible deal, or can management do the buy back during the hard time to ...more  
Comment by Oakie1 on Jul 23, 2022 1:34am
Garden, You are right, there are bigger issues to consider than messing with trolls. I think someone else on this board did report meathead666 to Stockhouse, but I don't think anyone has reported him to the SEC. If anyone did, please speak up, as I may go ahead and report him if no one else has. Oakie 1
Comment by MetalMinded on Jul 21, 2022 6:53am
You have clearly NEVER worked a large corporate deal nor one of this size.  This isn't going to the local super market and buying a few items for dinner.  RIO never indicated nor said they have a deal done on this (your) timeline. Paul's said in the interview they'd be sitting down very soon.  
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