The inimitable Dennis Gartman, who has been publishing his popular commentary since 1987, took a break from one of his busy days to chat with The Gold Report. As he reads it, things will get worse before they get better—but we’re not facing Armageddon. In fact, he posits that the worse the news gets the closer we are to emerging from the economic morass. He agrees that liquidity injections by the Fed and central banks the world over will lead to inflation—but he foresees single-digit stuff as opposed to hyperinflation. He favors modest holdings in physical gold—but would rather lose money on the bullion and coins he personally holds. He buys into the peak oil argument—but doesn’t expect the day the world runs out of crude oil to dawn for maybe 10,000 years.
The Gold Report: With a real roller-coaster year behind us, how would you characterize your macro overview of major economic trends for 2009?
Dennis Gartman: It’s abundantly clear that we have been in recession; we're in a recession; and we’re likely to remain in a recession through the greatest portion of 2009. The monetary authorities around the world have done all the things they’re supposed to do, which is during a period of economic weakness throw liquidity in the system as abundantly, as swiftly, as manifestly as possible and expect the liquidity eventually to wend its way through the economy and strengthen economic circumstances. That may be sometime late in 2009. In the meantime, we’ll see continued bad economic data and continued increases in unemployment. It’s going to seem like things are really, really, really bad.
But let’s remember that things are always their worst at the bottom. By definition, recessions begin at the peak of economic activity when all economic data looks its best. So while things will start to look very bad through the rest of 2009, I bet that by late this year and early 2010 we will start to see economic strength coming at us because of the liquidity injections going on everywhere.
TGR: What will be the first signs that we’ve reached the bottom in terms of the recession and are starting to turn around?
DG: The signs of a turnaround will be that everybody believes that there are no signs of a turnaround. We’ll see Newsweek writing a series of cover stories talking about the end of Western civilization. The Financial Times of London headlines will read, “The Recession Seems Endless” and “Depression Is Upon Us.” Every day’s Wall Street Journal articles will be just manifestly bleak in nature. That’s what the signs will be.
And then all of a sudden, things shall begin to turn around. But the signs are always their worst at the bottom. That’s how things function.
TGR: So the popular press is in essence on a delay mode.
DG: Oh, it always is.
TGR: By three months, by six months, by a year?
DG: It’s probably a little less slow to react than it used to be, but let’s say three months.
TGR: So you like the fact that the monetary authorities have put liquidity into the system?
DG: Absolutely.
TGR: And it sounds as if you think it just takes time to work through the system.
DG: Always has; always will. That’s how these things go about. You have recessions because you had an economic advance where, in Greenspan’s terms, “irrational exuberance took over.” You have to dash that irrational exuberance and make it into irrational depression. Irrational, manifestly bleak, black philosophies have to make their way to the public. That’s just how these things happen; it’s happened time and time again.
The recession that I recall the most clearly is that of ’72-’74. We have to remember that unemployment was high up in double digits. We saw plenty of articles in the press about the new depression. If you go back and read articles from July through September of 1974, you will be convinced that we will never have an economic rebound in our lives again. Well, clearly, that’s just not the case.
TGR: What about the bearish people who say we’ve never seen worldwide conditions like this and that we’re in the “new era”?
DG: We probably haven’t seen the world going into recession at one time such as we are now. But I think that’s simply indicative of the fact that today’s communications are so much better. People in the United States or Canada or Europe really never would have known much about a recession in India 20 years ago, because the news media would not have covered it. Nothing told you about economic circumstances abroad. Now, with the Internet, information comes at you absolutely one-on-one.
All correlations have gone to one in this present environment. When stocks go down in the United States, they go down in India. When they go down in India, they go down in Vietnam. When they go down in Vietnam, they go down in Australia. That wasn’t the case 20 years ago; you didn’t have the small world united through communications that we have now. And now the correlations of emerging markets and large markets have all come together.
TGR: If that’s true, and worldwide financial markets are all tied together, could any given country “emerge” as a growth country while the rest remain in recession?
DG: Oh, it’s possible, but I don’t think we’ll call them “emerging markets” anymore. You’ll just find that one country pursued better economic policies, probably by cutting taxes or increasing government spending or doing away with some onerous legal circumstance that might have previously inhibited economic activity. The Chinese are doing any number of good things at this point, and that country may just have been more enlightened and it may come out of the recession faster than the others do. But now they won’t do it on their own, and anybody who does do it will be watched and understood much more swiftly than in the past. For example, did you ever know what was going on in Iceland 10 years ago? Of course not; but now you do.
TGR: Right. The only emerging markets we heard about were China and India. No one ever discussed South America.
DG: And now they’ve emerged. But now we understand. We hear news from Venezuela every day. Now we hear news from Sri Lanka every day if we want it; we can get it very easily. We couldn’t do that 10 years ago; 20 years ago clearly we couldn’t. That’s been the big change. Information travels so much more rapidly. That’s why all the correlations have gone to one. We are now one large economic machine that maybe one of the component parts does a little bit better, but it won’t shock anybody, and there won’t be anything “emerging.”
TGR: Back to the bear people. You referenced the ’72-’74 economy, but this time, many are pointing to the debt situation that the U.S. and probably a bunch of the world economies are in and the fact that we’re committing to billions—and in the U.S., trillions—of dollars more. Won’t that influx of new money have some kind of significant bear impact going forward?
DG: No, it will have a bullish impact. Unless all the rules of economics have been rescinded, money pushed into a system will push economic activity higher.
TGR: But it will also push inflation higher.
DG: Oh, that’s very likely to happen. The question is whether it will be inflation of 1%, 2%, 5%, or will it be a Zimbabwean-like inflation? The latter isn’t going to happen, and 1% isn’t likely going to happen. But 2% to 5% inflation? Yes, that’s likely to happen several years down the line.
TGR: Gold bugs are saying, “Buy gold now.” What would be your advice under these circumstances?
DG: I happen to be modestly bullish on the gold market, but not because of inflationary concerns. It’s more that I think gold has quietly moved up the ladder of reservable assets, a reservable asset being one that central banks are willing to keep on their balance sheets, all things being equal. Dollars are still the world’s dominant reservable asset. The Euro is next and gold is probably the third.
The Fed has thrown off a lot of other assets and taken on securities, debt instruments, mortgages and the like, but I think they’re doing exactly the right thing. Some central banks with a lot of U.S. government securities on the balance sheet may decide that going forward, they may buy more gold rather than more U.S. government securities if they’re running an imbalance of trade surplus. For instance, if I’m the Bank of China and I hold a minuscule sum of gold, maybe I should own a slightly larger minuscule sum.
TGR: That’s really diversifying your monetary assets.
DG: I think that’s all that will drive the gold prices quietly higher. I am not a gold bug; I don’t think the world’s coming to an end. I think the history of man is to progress. And yes, we have relatively large amounts of debt, but you can go back to the recession of 1974; you can go back to 1980-81; you can go back to the recession of 1907, and you will see the same arguments—that the world is too debt-laden. And the same arguments, the same language, the same verbiage was always written in exactly the same circumstances. Guess what? We moved on. This time might be different, but I’ll bet that it won’t be.
TGR: What would your recommendation for investors to do in gold? If they want to do any type of holding assets in monetary value, should they be looking at holding physical gold or buying ETFs or buying into the equity?
DG: For the past several years, I’ve told people that if they’re going to make the implied bet on gold, bet on gold. The gold bugs tell you that you have to own bullion. I say, no, you should really own the GLD, the ETF. It trades tick-for-tick with gold. If some truly untoward chaotic circumstance ran through the world’s banking system I guess maybe GLD and bullion would diverge at some point, but we’d have other problems long before that would occur. So if you’re going to make the implied bet on gold, bet on gold. Do the GLD.
TGR: But not physical gold?
DG: I do own some physical gold. But do I own a lot of it? No. And quite honestly, I hope I lose money on the physical gold I have. It’s an insurance policy. Nothing more than that.
TGR:: Are you looking at physical gold as the insurance policy or any investment in gold as an insurance policy?
DG: There’s the old saying, “Those aren’t eatin’ sardines; them is trading sardines.” Some gold I consider to be tradable, and that’s ETF-type stuff, and I have a small amount in the lockbox in the form of gold coins. That’s my insurance policy.
TGR: That would be what the typical investment broker might advise, 5% to 10% in gold.
DG: That’s it. Exactly, that’s it. Don’t get overwhelmed by it.
TGR: How about mining stocks?
DG: If you’re going to bet on gold, there’s nothing worse than being bullish on gold and owning some mine—especially in some junior fly-by-night—and walking in one morning and finding out that the mine you thought you had got flooded or all of your workers were unionized and walked off or management was somewhat derelict. You may have been right on the direction of gold, but your stock went down. So I’ve told people to stay away from the juniors; that’s a terrible bet on gold. If you’re going to bet on gold, bet on gold.
Maybe you’ll want to start punting on Barrick Gold Corporation (NYSE: ABX, Stock Forum) or Newmont Mining Corp. (NYSE: NEM, Stock Forum) or the real large names, rather than the juniors. There’s just too much risk in the juniors. Yes, everybody says, “I bought this junior at a nickel and now it’s at 15 cents.” Well, jolly for you, but you probably bought 15 others at a nickel, and they’re all bankrupt. If you’re going to bet on gold, bet on gold.
TGR: So you’re saying with that advice that if you want to bet on gold equity, bet on blue-chip gold equity stocks that have just been hammered down through the market.
DG: That’s correct, Agnico-Eagle Mines (TSX: T.AEM, Stock Forum), ASA Ltd. (NYSE: ASA, Stock Forum), the Newmonts, the Barricks, that sort of thing.
TGR: If we take that logic and look across the broad array of sectors, would you also recommend looking at other blue chips that have just been battered? Or do you think that some sectors will recover faster than others? Such as the financial sector, the energy sector, the housing sector, the precious metals sector?
DG: I’m really quite bullish on infrastructure—the movers and the makers of the things that if you drop them on your foot, it will hurt. I think I want to own steel and copper and railroads and tractors because I think we’re going to be building roads and bridges. That’s probably one of the things that probably will bring us out of the economic morass. Along those lines, I wouldn’t mind owning a little bit of gold at the same time.
TGR: Unlike gold that you can buy and own, if you look at steel and copper, are there specific companies and equities that are appealing to you?
DG: Again, as in gold, if I am going to buy gold equities, I’m going to buy the biggest names. If I’m going to buy steel, I’m going to buy the biggest names. U.S. Steel comes to mind. That’s the easiest; that’s the best; that’s where liquidity lives. It has been bashed down from the highs made last July; it’s down—what?—75% from its high. Recently it stopped going down and is in fact starting to go up now on bad news. So if you’re going to buy steel, buy the most obvious ones—U.S. Steel or buy Newcorp.
TGR: You talked about the energy market being weak in one of your recent newsletters. Do you see this weakness continuing or do you see a turnaround happening in ’09?
DG: The one thing that we can rest assured in the rest of the world is that OPEC chiefs cheat on each other—they always have and they always will. So when OPEC says that it’s cut production, that’s a lovely thing. No, they haven’t, and they don’t. Because the problem OPEC has is they’ve all raised their standards of living and the expectations of their people, and they all have cash flow requirements. You have to sell three times as much $50 crude oils as you sold $150 crude oil to meet the demands of your populace that you have increased. So the lovely thing from a North American perspective is that Chavez finds himself in a very uncomfortable position and needs to produce a lot more crude oil to keep his public happy. It’s rather comical, isn’t it, that Chavez was giving crude oil away to the Kennedy family to be distributed to people in the Northeastern United States until two weeks ago when he had to stop. He had to stop because he needs the crude oil on his own to sell, not to give away, to meet cash flow demands.
Iran is in exactly the same position. Isn’t it lovely to see that Putin, who was really feeling his military oats six months ago with $150 oil, has to pick fights with Ukraine and smaller countries now with crude at $45 a barrel? Where is crude going to go? I wouldn’t be surprised if we make new lows.
TGR: Will there be new lows for ’09? Are you buying into this whole peak oil argument that production eventually will be unable to meet demand?
DG: Do I believe that we’re going to run out of crude oil in the next 100 years? Not on your life. Sometime in the next 10,000 years we probably will run out of crude oil. In that instance, I am a peak oil believer. It’s not going to happen soon though. I remember they told me when I was in undergraduate school back in the late ’60s that we would be out of crude oil by 1984.
TGR: Do you mean out of oil? Or at a point where demand exceeds production?
DG: We would be out! Gone, done! There would be no more. Isn’t it interesting? We’ve pumped crude oil for 28 more years. This is an interesting statistic: We have either seven or eight times more proven reserves now than we had in 1969. And I think we have used a bit of crude oil between now and 1969.
TGR: Just a wee bit.
DG: A wee bit, and yet we have seven or eight times more proven reserves. Every year we have more proven reserves. So, yes, I’m a peak oil believer. Sometime in the next 10,000 years we will run out of crude.
Stay tuned for Part II of this interview.
Irreverent, outspoken, entertaining, sardonic and—in his own words, a “glib S-O-B,” Dennis Gartman has been producing The Gartman Letter for more than 20 years. His daily commentary on global capital markets as well as short- and long-term perspectives on political, economic and technical circumstances goes to leading banks, brokerage firms, hedge funds, mutual funds, energy companies and grain traders around the world.
A 1972 graduate of the University of Akron (Ohio), he undertook graduate studies at North Carolina State University in Raleigh (where he remains involved as a member of the Investment Committee.
Before devoting himself full-time to The Gartman Letter, Dennis analyzed cotton supply and demand in the U.S. textile industry as an economist for Cotton, Inc.; traded foreign exchange and money market instruments at North Carolina National Bank, went to Chicago to serve as A.G. Becker & Company’s Chief Financial Futures Analyst and then become an independent member of the Chicago Board of Trade, dealing in treasury bonds and notes and GNMA futures contracts; and moved to Virginia to run Virginia National Bank’s futures brokerage operation.
In addition to publishing The Gartman Letter, Dennis delivers speeches to audiences around the world (including central banks, finance ministries, and trade groups), teaches classes on derivatives for the Federal Reserve Bank's School for Bank Examiners, and makes frequent guest appearances on CNBC, ROB-TV and Bloomberg television.