Edgewater Wireless Systems Inc V.YFI

Single-radio 802.11 Breeds vs. Multi-radio 802.11 Breeds

[Kuiper]

Single-radio 802.11 Breeds vs. Multi-radio 802.11 Breeds: Evolution of Races of a Species, 802.11 Standard Breeds and Marketing Thereof

Charles Darwin, in his 1859 book “On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life”, describes the growth of an evolutionary tree of a species. With each generation or the species, some individuals are born with significantly different characteristics than those of their parents due to different combinations of inherited genes or due to mutations. Natural selection then chooses which of the offspring live to breed and pass on their characteristics to the next generation, and so on, causing a new race.

Many races of a species are so well adapted to their environment that any offspring with significantly different characteristics die (e.g., killed by predators, starve, etc.) before a new race can form. Therefore, the current races of a species perpetuate and the number of individuals increases to the limits of their environment.

Consider 802.11 (Wi-Fi) to be a species and the 802.11a-1999 and 802.11g-2003 amendment to be domestic races (breeds) that are well adapted to fit their environments and so perpetuate. (Note that the 802.11-1997 and 802.11b-1999 Wi-Fi races are practically extinct. However, for backward compatibility, their characteristics were passed on through 802.11g-2003, which is a hybrid of 802.11a and 802.11b.)

Now consider that breeders of a domestic species may develop new breeds for improved characteristics over the existing breeds. Now, some new characteristics may make the new breeds only marginal more effective fit the environments than the existing breeds. However, for marketing reasons, breeders create new breeds with new characteristics whose primary purposes are to appeal to customers in order to promote sales at higher prices than the existing breeds. Examples of this are new breeds of dogs, pigeons, etc.

In fact, these new appealing breeds perform little no better in general environments than the previous breeds only because they inherited the characteristics of the existing breeds. This is because the appealing characteristics are only an advantage when the new breeds are in “green field” environments.

For example, the 802.11n-2009 amendment breed, which can be backward compatible with 802.11a and 802.11g in the 5 GHz and the 2.4 GHz bands, respectively, and so it is fit to provide little or no better performance in general environments.  (E.g., 802.11n’s maximum information rate is 58.5 Mbps vs. 54 Mbps for 802.11a/g, where

• MCS (Modulation and Coding Scheme = 6, i.e., regular GI (guard interval), 64-QAM, 3/4 coding;
• 20 MHz channel, no MIMO (i.e., one spatial stream);
• Maximum range between the AP and SS (client) station for a given transmitter power;
• Maximum MSDU (MAC Service Data Unit) size, i.e., 2304 bytes.)

However, 802.11n appealing characteristics (i.e., SGI (short guard interval), 256-QAM, 5/6 coding, 40 MHz channel width, MIMO (2-4 spatial streams), beamforming, frame aggregation) provide increased performance in only certain special environments and use cases. (E.g., the maximum theoretical information rate of 802.11n is 600 Mbps (see IEEE 802.11n-2009 From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), which only possible over a very short maximum range between the AP and SS (client) stations in a green field environment and exceptional use cases.

Also for example, the 802.11ac-2013 and 802.11ax (due sometime in 2019) amendments, which 802.11ac is backward compatible with 802.11a in the 5 GHz band and 802.11ax is backward compatible with both 802.11a and 802.11g in the 5 GHz band and the 2.4 GHz bands, respectively, and so they are fit to provide little or no better performance in general environments. (E.g., 802.11ac’s maximum information rate is 58.5 Mbps vs. 54 Mbps for 802.11a/g, where the conditions are the same as for 802.11n as given above.)

However, 802.11ac’s appealing characteristics (i.e., SGI (short guard interval), 256-QAM, 5/6 coding, 40/80/160 MHz channel widths, MIMO (2-8 spatial streams), beamforming, frame aggregation) to yet again provide increased performance in certain special environments and use cases. (E.g., 802.11ac’s maximum theoretical information rate is 6,933Mbps (see What is 802.11ac Wi-Fi, and how much faster than 802.11n is it?), which is only possible over a very short maximum range between the AP and SS stations in a green field environment and exceptional use cases.

802.11ax’s appealing characteristics are inherited from 802.11ac and additional 1024-QAM and MU-MIMO (multi-user MIMO) with two users per 20 MHz channel bandwidth and maximum of 2x160/20=16 users per MSDU for a 160 MHz channel. However, 802.11ax lost the SGI and added a LGI (long GI) characteristic, to yet again provide increased performance in certain special environments and use cases. (E.g., 802.11ax’s maximum theoretical information rate of 1201 Mbps per one spatial stream (see IEEE 802.11ax From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and presumably 8x1201=9608 Mbps for 8 spatial streams, which is only possible over an extremely short maximum range between the AP and SS stations in a green field environment and very exceptional use cases.

Therefore, in summary, 802.11n, 802.11ac and 802.11ax will perform little or no better that 802.11a or 802.11g in general environments. Nevertheless, the marketers of Wi-Fi convinced their customers to buy 802.11n in the past, 802.11ac now, and 802.11ax in the future for premium prices by using appealing characteristics with high maximum performance numbers. That they do so knowing that their customers will never obtain anywhere near such high performance numbers, except in certain extremely unlikely special environments and use cases.  

Now, continuing the analogy that 802.11 is a species and all of the single-radio 802.11a/g/n/ac/ax breeds will perform similarly in in general environments. Metaphorically, these single-radio breeds are analogous to monopods (Greek: one-foot), as pictured below (from the Nuremberg Chronicle, 1493), which are mythological dwarf-like creatures with a single, large foot extending from a leg centered in the middle of their bodies.


Now consider that skillful breeding produces new multi-radio 802.11a/g breeds, where the performance of an n-radio 802.11a/g breed unit station in general environments will perform n-times better than a single-radio 802.11a/g/n/ac/ax breed unit station in the same general environment. Continuing the metaphorical example, the monopodial and these new bipedal, quadrupedal and multi-pedal breeds will be proportionally faster, respectively.  So, clearly, in a competition of speed between the monopodial, bipedal, quadrupedal and multi-pedal breeds of a species, you should bet on competitor with the largest number of feet.

NOTE: Since the Wi-Fi Alliance have apparently labeled single-radio 802.11-1997 and the 802.11b-1999, 802.11a-1999, 802.11g-2003, 802.11n-2009, 802.11ac-2018 and 802.11ax-2019(?) amendments as Wi-Fi®generations 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, respectively, and have declared Wi-Fi 6 to be the next generation of Wi-Fi®connectivity (see Next generation Wi-Fi® connectivity), it seems reasonable that a further multi-radio 802.11 amendment should be declared generation 7.

[Kuiper]

This response is for the benefit of those Bullboard members who are reading the thread of the subject posting.   Trump is a perfect example of a person who ridicules others and notably of being crazy conspiracy theorists regarding the Trump campaign organization conspiring with Russia to influence the U.S. 2016 Presidential Election. For anyone who has been “living off the grid”, that was a

[leodevoe]

So you talk about liars them start posting lies. There is not one shred of evidence any potential customers have done tests. If there is post a link. We did this last time and you just disappeared when everything you wrote was proven to be a lie. I'm bored from a year of covid. So if you want to I'll be happy to answer each of your posts. Proceed  

[SamDiego]

[leodevoe]

Sure Scam. I pointed out several lies and he didn't even try to counter. He just repeated the same lame points over and over and over. He must be a hoot at a cocktail party.

[Kuiper]

The IEEE working groups are dominated by the big corporations, because only they can afford to send for years large numbers of WG members to meetings literally all over the world, usually to high-end resort hotels during peak seasons (e.g., skiing). Of course, these members are the ones who put the appealing characteristics with their corresponding high maximum performance numbers into the

[leodevoe]

LOL. Talk about gaslighting. You're on here talking about liars and all you do is lie. Also, can you please point out the agents of the big players on this board.  It's also amusing that you think the people that actually sell chips are concerned about Yfi. If they were concerned they would have bought them. Possibly they'd acknowledge their existence. Is it a conspiracy that no

[Kuiper]

I don't know why YFI uses the term "multi-channel"  regarding their technology.   A TV or radio receiver is a multi-channel receiver station, but they can receive one-channel at a time so they are a single-radio station (i.e., they can be tuned to receive over one channel at a time). Indeed, traditionally, most TV and stations are single-channel radio stations (i.e., they

[leodevoe]

In 2003 Engim Inc. introduced a new revolutionary wifi technology. It was developed to battle the proliferation of wifi devices and the inherent interference they created. It was called wifi3. Didn't seem to catch on and they went out of business. 18 years later the market has somehow managed to not only survive but thrive. Wifi is not perfect. But it works for the vast majority of the users

[VerifiedUser69]

Engim died because Cisco bought Airspace and the entire WLAN business slowed in 2005. They had won designs at Cisco and Symbol (Who became Motorola than Zebra now Extreme). Cisco had to integrate Airspace and put the project on indefinite hold. They had no other customers other then Symbol which was not big enough to Survive, the Engin IP was bought and everyone went on their separate ways. 

[VerifiedUser69]

This was in response to Leo post for some of the actual events that occurred back in 2005. 

[VerifiedUser69]

"In 2003 Engim Inc. introduced a new revolutionary wifi technology. It was developed to battle the proliferation of wifi devices and the inherent interference they created. It was called wifi3. Didn't seem to catch on and they went out of business. 18 years later the market has somehow managed to not only survive but thrive. Wifi is not perfect. But it works for the vast majority of the

[leodevoe]

Engim couldn't raise a Series D. That's why they died. Cisco stepping away had nothing to do with it. Engim was never in it to do designs for chip makers. They were in it to sell their product in their AP's. And 2005 wasn't a business slow down. The market was awash in chip designers/builders for a decade. Engim like many just couldn't sell their wares. Care to make up more

[VerifiedUser69]

I presume you got your information from former executives at Engim like I did. If not, keep posting unrelated topics about Plume, they are in an entirely different space compared to Edgewater Wireless. 

[leodevoe]

Yep, I've talked to a few ex Engimers. If you don't no where something comes from you can't determine where it's going. Clearly my convos delivered some good intelligence. As for your ridiculous statement, both companies are in the wifi space. Until recently Yfi was firmly planted in the hardware space, but they had zero chance of being in the device sales biz kwhich is why they

[VerifiedUser69]

I stopped reading at "yes" to Engim, and that's great. I'll be sure to message Gagne and ask him who else he has been talking to, the guy is an Open book, (I lean to the opinions and tech advice of a pro like him)  My eyes saw something and it didn't look like "Plume is working on its own chip" so I gave up.   

[leodevoe]

Who builds AP's that run on their own chip? Ya, no one. Not even Yfi. You'll have to try harder. Please. 

[leodevoe]

Oh, and if the sales guy is your source, ya no wonder you're out of the loop. Not mention the thing that killed Engim was......no sales. 

[VerifiedUser69]

Quote info from a source, a former employee and it's not good enough for Leo. The former VP of Sales wasn't good enough. Keep moving those goal posts.     

[leodevoe]

Post something credible. Anyone with internet access could post your info. I mean who became who in the tech space is hardly inside knowledge.  And I'm surprised to see you back here. I guess you can't come back with one of the old accounts. 

[AAtrager]

This post has been removed in accordance with Community Policy

[AAtrager]

This post has been removed in accordance with Community Policy

[FIRSTGMAN]

Andrew is still trying to fulfill a number of timelines from 3-4 years ago, I can't recall 1 that was actually met that was stated or implied.  Don't claim shock when nothing comes, of anything said coming.

[Pandora]

Edgewater is in the midst of renewing it's OFDM patent. Seems it now has to be renewed every 3 years. I believe wifi6 primarily uses OFDMA. Maybe Kuiper will expound on that.

[Pandora]

  The main difference between an OFDM and an OFDMA (Orthogonal Frequency Division Multiple Access) system is the fact that in OFDM the users are allocated on the time domain only, while in using an OFDMA system the user would be allocated by both time and frequency. ... For the uplink, SC-FDMA will be used.

[Pandora]

I tried posting those two phrases re OFDM in one post and SH kept rejecting it as being offensive or derogatory speech. Separately they're ok.  Oh well!

[SamDiego]

Totally palatable if anyone researches the conduct of some big corporations  in real world settings. If you do not believe me I welcome anyone to research past and present legal cases in the Dept of Justice.  Warning, check out the allegations and practices when the titans of tech clash horns. You don`t have to read Grisham to tickle your imagination in this regard. I would not at all be

[leodevoe]

Ah yes, the corporate espionage angle. Love this one. I've looked into it and it may have some merit. Heretofore some possibilities; A shady banker put the boots to Rare preventing them from financing the multi million dollar demo center. Just when the Kroger deal came to fruition a corporate saboteur caused Yfi to have to stop production of its chips and develop a new version. A

[SamDiego]

Makes sense to me, and it apparently makes more sense to the Tier 1 service provider.  I wonder how many other such Tier 1 service providers agree with Kuipers "LIPSTICK ON A PIG"  descriptive single-radio 802.11 evovlement to date?  It is no wonder that Leo is so irate considering that this is exactly what he concocted in his basement. So Leo, if you were at the track

[leodevoe]

I have no idea what point you're making here. You write like a an ESL student. But it's timely you bring up the BIL. Haven't been able to swill potables with him in person for some time for obvious reasons. We do occasionally have a video chat in which we have a glass or two. We just did one where we both opened a bottle of Bertani Amarone, the 2006. It was spectacular. The chat