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Bullboard - Stock Discussion Forum Bombardier Inc. T.BBD.A

Alternate Symbol(s):  BDRAF | BDRBF | T.BBD.B | T.BBD.PR.B | T.BBD.PR.C | T.BBD.PR.D | BDRPF | BOMBF | BDRXF

Bombardier Inc. is a Canada-based manufacturer of business aircraft with a global network of service centers. The Company is focused on designing, manufacturing and servicing business jets. The Company has a worldwide fleet of more than 5,000 aircraft in service with a variety of multinational corporations, charter and fractional ownership providers, governments and private individuals. It... see more

TSX:BBD.A - Post Discussion

Bombardier Inc. > Impact of CSeries on Bombardier
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Post by BBDB859 on Mar 17, 2021 12:01pm

Impact of CSeries on Bombardier

I have some time on my hands today, and I want to address Richard Aboulafia's article if you care to read it.

https://www.richardaboulafia.com/shownote.asp?id=677

-The reason why I want to address it is, that I don't agree with his conclusions. That Bombardier's survival as a stand alone BA company is going to be hard.

-I think that his conclusion, that the Family will have to sell BA at some point to GD, or any other competitor group is unfounded. On the contrary I think he is totaly wrong IMHO.

This is where I'm coming from.

Any company's survival, or success depends on it's Management, and Managements decisions, in which direction they want to take the company. In the case of this company, management was in the wrong hands, in Pierre Beaudoin. I don't want to rehash everything, because a lot of you will have your own opinions about the Bellemare and PB relationship. but I have mine. Now that we have seen that duo management played out, you're all going to say that that is Hind Sight. I don't want to go there. Because I've been saying this all along when the CSeries CSeries decisions were made at the time, and I considered the AB/PB team combined as incompetent management.

I was saying since 2016, that they needed to sell a lot of the assets to get the CSeries Debt down. They went about it, slowly or as quickly as they could, so interest on the debt killed them. They finally made the gravest error IMHO when they decided to sell the CSeries to Airbus. Richard Aboulafia made note of the fact that they didn't only sell it for nothing, but they kept giving presents to Airbus to take it, in the form of cash calls. I said that, and kept saying that throughout the the sale, and still feel the same today that, that was their mistake. You can't give away 51% of a $6B program for free, and then give control of that program to Airbus a stronger competitor, and then finance the growth of that program with your JV partner and then give them the option to buy it from you. It's just not a smart management decision. I said then, and I still say it today, that they should have just built the orders they had, and then PAUSE the program. We saw the conclusion of that management decision to give control to Airbus. Finished no more on the CSeries BLUNDER.

Now the new management of EM of this once strong company going forward.

WE have a strong BA. The leader in Bus., Jets. If Martel is left alone to take control, and they get rid of PB's salary? Then we have a chance. How? I think BA is in good hands with EM and BD. 

This is MO alone, and I think it's doable. They have a year runway right now to manage BA well. They have to save, save, save. Debt is paid off till 2023. So from now 2021 till 2023 they should save $500M conbined, from operations and keep their $1.8B in reserves intact. This will give them leaway to tackle the 2024 debt. That's when the other debt's start to come in. Stay the course in NO spending for new programs, only spending minimal on them, and spend minimal on PP&E. Spend nothing on R&D. Get rid of all excess personel, and over capacity, and get whatever you can out of the assets. Then renegotiate every recurring debt 2024 and on, by puting in a small 35% amount on each renewal, because by them they should be able to make $350M of positive FCF IMHO.

All the above will work assuming that PB hasn't paid off all of BT's, and CSeries, debt's yet, and is throwing them on the BA Statements going forward. We'll know the answer to that soon, Quarter by Quarter, or at the very leasy by the end of Q4/2021.

Now if things get out of hand, and things don't work out as planned. Then EM can find an equity partner, and sell up to 49% of BA and get in the range of $4B equity for 50% of BA and go forward. By then I would be open to a 10 to 1 reverse split, because we'll be in positive FCF territory anyway, of at least $350M/yearly.

So Aboulafia's conclusion is totally wrong. The V-raptor was, or could even still be in the Bunny Farm, but this time unlike the CSeries he's not running lose to eat all the rabbits. He is in his cage, and we may need him for a pet later. If Bombardier had kept the CSeries mothballed/paused? They would have sold it to someone like Boeing, or even the MHI, in MHO 2-3 years later.

This plan  is very doable, and it's in EM's hands to deliver. Good management is the key from now on. We have no more freebee cash coming from any other sources. Time to tighten our belt.
Comment by johnney on Mar 17, 2021 12:23pm
BBDB859, very good post, but P.B. has to leave, and that would be a good sign! He left his place of president in 2015, but sill is the boss, and take decisions, i'm sure of that! he,s been the cancer of all this!!
Comment by johnney on Mar 17, 2021 2:10pm
BBDB, no doubt on my mind that P.B. must leave from there, i mentionned this many time here before, but some here still worship this God! Martel will probally do a good job, but not as good if he has to wipe P.B. A$$, and investors do know this!!!!
Comment by clubhouse19 on Mar 17, 2021 3:42pm
When you say in the form of cash calls...BBD could not afford that cash call so if you say they made that cash call ..that is incorrect as far as I know.   BBD did not have the time let alone the money to be able to keep the C series waiting for things to turn around as they were leveraged in too many directions the worse being the debt.  BTW...nothing stays on hold or suspension at no ...more  
Comment by flamingogold on Mar 17, 2021 4:12pm
Despite all the bad luck, poor decisions and vengeful press, we can not under estimate how lucky BBD was to unload the 1 one program that would have sunk them for good by selling CSeries to Airbus in February 2020 just days before covid hit. No chance of survival holding on to that division through and after the covid storm.
Comment by johnney on Mar 17, 2021 5:44pm
Flamingogold, the best thing that could happen to all the shareholders is that P.B. walks away this year, being replaced by someone who knows how buisiness works, cause he real missed it! we have E.M. now, but we still have that A$$ of P.B. driving the car, and that investors knows it, that he's been the major problem all what the company has been through!
Comment by BBDB859 on Mar 17, 2021 4:48pm
Hey Club. I'm not sure what it was in that statement of "cash calls" that you need clarification on, by what you're saying below. But here's what I meant. When you give your JV partner 51% of the company. You're in essence giving them "CARD BLANCHE" to spend your money. If they want to invest in PP&E like they did in Alabama? The Bomber had no choice but ...more  
Comment by johnney on Mar 17, 2021 5:02pm
BBDB859, On this post, answering to someone, i tell you this, i agree 100% with your post!
Comment by clubhouse19 on Mar 17, 2021 9:12pm
The cash call made by Airbus is what I was referring to. Cash call being made by the majority partner to keep the partnership going..Cash call was to be used  If remember correctly, with the Alabama plant..correct me if I am wrong.   Not a carte Blanche as the moneys are  put up by both partners to go forward with the plan as agreed upon.It so happens that the bomber did not attain ...more  
Comment by BBDB859 on Mar 18, 2021 11:27am
Hey club. It sounds like to me that you are refering to, is a particular cash call towards the end of the JV Partnership, between the Bomber and Airbus. Let's face it. The JV made no sense to me from the begining. As you say that the Bomber didn't have the cash to pay for cash calls going forward because of CASHFLOW issues in BT and everywhere else in the company.  What I'm ...more  
Comment by clubhouse19 on Mar 18, 2021 11:55am
You're just proving my point, there was no other decision to be made and BTW...who else would have made an offer other than someone that had a current stake in the business and had the balance sheet to take it on.  Quebec/IQ got what they wanted out of it and BBD got rid of the money eating elephant of the cseries no matter how pretty it was. And BTW...what other elephant would have ...more  
Comment by BBDB859 on Mar 18, 2021 2:29pm
Hey Club. Honestly, I don't know what your point was, and I don't know how I proved it. I thought it had to do with cash calls. If your point was that this Oliver and Hardy team had no financial choice because they we're hemorrhaging then. We're talking the same thing. The second and bigest part of my point is that this is that. Other companies also run into trouble financially ...more  
Comment by johnney on Mar 19, 2021 1:33am
BBDB859, At least you too admit, as me, that i mentionned here many times, that (P.B/AB) we're incompetent at their job! P.B. should leave his chair now! We are still caught with that clown, and sure doesn't help the company with one division left, cause if he takes just one more bad decision, sorry to say this, their finished, as us too!!!
Comment by clubhouse19 on Mar 19, 2021 3:39pm
859 I think it's time to quit analysing the autopsy of the c series and consider only what may be ahead. Trying to prove who is right or wrong on the past is really a moot point and not worth the constant rehash. As I mentioned before, personally I just trade this for now, in fact have made about 12 trades in the last 2 weeks riding this up and traded for pennies and all in the black and ...more  
Comment by BBDB859 on Mar 19, 2021 4:43pm
Agreed. BTW, I like the wording "Autopsy". Nice touch.  Now if they can only keep the "idiot Heir" away from BA we'll be in great shape. We should take his Bomber Credit Card away from him too. Great to hear that you finally figured out the manipulator's tricks. As you know I've been holding this bag for a while now. But I'm finally seeing some progress ...more  
Comment by johnney on Mar 19, 2021 5:42pm
BBDB859, i agree again 100% of your post! Yes if they can keep the "idiot heir", and the most important, yes his Bomber credit card, cause i also have been holding  the bag for a while, and not happy about it also!!
Comment by raphaelle2 on Mar 19, 2021 8:28pm
859 You keep barking up the wrong tree again IMO. The original cause of ALL the problems at BBD is LB, not the kid. More interested to do any kind of deals, even some really stupid, than to manage the growing co. A real gambler ( you lose some...win some, and never afraid of losing ) Look at the tremendous succes of BRP which the Bombardier family isolated from LB...and you have your answer. BA is ...more  
Comment by BBDB859 on Mar 19, 2021 11:15pm
Very interesting info Ralph. I always enjoy a knowledgeable conversation. I guess there is merit to what you are saying. I've never had the previlage to get to know any family members. Being from Toronto I've only invested in the stock. I've never any inside knowledge on the Family dynamic. I appreciate the info. It still doesn't change the fact that the CSeries gamble was a ...more  
Comment by lb1temporary on Mar 20, 2021 7:03am
Totally agree. This company problems have many causes but the origin of them is that it was managed by ''entrepreneurs'' like a small cap company always putting their assets at risk for an audacious deal. Betting that things will fall in place. The magic has stopped working. When you have billions in sales, when you are a world class company, a leader in planes and in trains, you ...more  
Comment by BBDB859 on Mar 20, 2021 10:43am
I guess we're all gamblers to a certain extent. Or else we wouldn't be here buying this company's stock.  But I think that somewhere along the line we all have a limit to risk we want to take.Though I think when the Family had reached this wealth position they should have protected their position. Good management can teach you how to be cautious by taking calculated risks. 
Comment by johnney on Mar 20, 2021 11:37am
BBDB, i just want to say, that if i wouldn't have own any shares of this, i personnally wouldn't put one dime into this, but as an owner since few years, and bought a few to bring my average down, but have more money in it, but if ever goes wrong, hope not, you just loose more that's all! I told this and repeat it again those who real made money with this, is the insiders, P.B./AB and ...more  
Comment by Shamhorish on Mar 20, 2021 11:51am
the same people that are screaming and blaming bombardier family and calling names, are the same ones that were cheering about the c series and the money it will bring in reality it take people like bombardier family to advance tech and bring success, they have gots and they brought to life the best single isle jet the c series, at the time barrel of oil was selling at 1110 -130 us dollar the c ...more  
Comment by clubhouse19 on Mar 20, 2021 12:19pm
The following debunks totally your theory about AirBuS "i think air bus delayed deliveries of A200 to dry bbd cash " They were losing money on every 200 delivered as is normal in the onset...so in fact, delays if there was, acually saved money. Remmeber after analizing they had to get the cost down by 20% ? Those are the facts.
Comment by Shamhorish on Mar 20, 2021 1:41pm
JUST TO ADD TO MY PREVIOUSE NOTES while there are some people here still follow sold out media and calling bbd family names those same people praising the bbd Global G7500, G 6500, G5500, Challengers family who do you thing intiated the Global program????????????????? was it thomson family???? who own the Globe and mail and reuters?????????? or it was Laurent Beadoin and bbd family whom you ...more  
Comment by johnney on Mar 20, 2021 3:21pm
Shamhorish, your right, for the c-series the've been hit one proble m after the other, for me either it's  not a coincidence, and yes they had to pay over 1B, in three years for the alabama plant, i remember this, as it was yesterday! That wasn't a deal at all, IMO!!
Comment by Willy2k on Mar 20, 2021 4:09pm
SCAMHORISH = Johnney talking to himself about the wooden nickles they made trolling
Comment by flamingogold on Mar 20, 2021 1:06pm
raphaelle... interesting. DOO $9 bln market cap compared to BBD $1.87 bln. DOO trading for over $102 and a float that is only 2% of BBD. In your opinion what does a possible merger look like and when?
Comment by johnney on Mar 20, 2021 10:11pm
Yes, but the number of shares outstanding OF BRP, or doo, is not comparable with the bomber, absolutally not, and that really counts!
Comment by PabloLafortune on Mar 20, 2021 2:10pm
To the extent that the buck stops here, you are correct but your reasoning is wrong IMO. The mistake LB made was to put PB in charge. Contrast to who he hired in the 70s for example. RR was a highly regarded mgr at USS, then he worked for LB for many years then became CEO of a large p&p company. Notwithstanding that LB is one of the greatest cdn entrepreneurs of all time.
Comment by johnney on Mar 20, 2021 3:24pm
PabloLafortune, yes the mistake was to put PB in charge, no doubt for me anyway!
Comment by PabloLafortune on Mar 21, 2021 11:20am
Johnney, it happens a lot in family businesses unfortunately. Don't be so harsh. In hindsight, it was bound to happen. A parent as a good parent has to give his son/daughter a chance if he/she wants it, the son wasn't qualified by 3rd parties and probably would never get a chance at another similar firm (AB, BA, GD, Textron), and AB was thrown into a financial mess in businesses he had ...more  
Comment by BBDB859 on Mar 21, 2021 12:41pm
Hey Pablo, are you back in again? If I may chime in with my thoughts? AB had no chance with PB in control of the company. But in hindsight, AB was not a good CEO. He was weak in business decisions, (look at all the transactions), and a yes man to PB. His job would have been to advise PB how to stop the bleeding. Yet he hadn't a clue.That Airbus decision was the worse decision I have ever seen ...more  
Comment by raphaelle2 on Mar 21, 2021 2:32pm
My last bit on this saga, promised!... When P Tellier, then CEO of BBD tried to stop the C Series from taking off, he was fired by LB and was replaced by PB. LB was looking for a puppet and could not get a better one. The rest is history, and no superman could have prevented this disaster. And. this is why, contrarily to Jean Coutu, LB could not step back in to stop PB. Later on AB was handed a ...more  
Comment by PabloLafortune on Mar 22, 2021 10:32am
859, always in, just at a reduced level. Plus my prefs. I had too much before... I think its hard to judge a Manager thrown into a mess like AB was.  The problems and liabilities had accumulated for many, many years prior - PT saw them coming  alas....  By the time AB came along, the company was already in deep - money losing businesses PLUS significant commitments, PLUS major ...more  
Comment by BBDB859 on Mar 22, 2021 1:18pm
Who's PT that you're referring to?
Comment by raphaelle2 on Mar 22, 2021 1:59pm
Paul Tellier. Ex CEO of BBD fired in 2004 ( one year before the end of his contract) because he tried to prevent the Cseries launch.Was replaced by PB at the head of BA by LB. See my post of yesterday.
Comment by Zimmee1 on Mar 22, 2021 2:13pm
Two old articles were retraced for this individual: https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/paul-tellier-ousted-as-bombardier-ceo-1.502537 ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/tellier-ousted-from-bombardier ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Tellier Ousted ...more  
Comment by BBDB859 on Mar 23, 2021 3:29pm
So Ralph. Given now that we know the outcome, and that hind sight is 20/20 on the CSeries. What is your opinion on the management of the CSeries as far back as 2004 time of PT? We know PT was right. But we don't know why PT didn't want to go ahead with the CSeries Development.  -If AB was a yes man to PB? How would you rate PB's management skills? -Why didn't LB stop the ...more  
Comment by flamingogold on Mar 23, 2021 3:39pm
What is the point of rehashing the past?
Comment by johnney on Mar 23, 2021 5:04pm
They should of listen to P.T.
Comment by BBDB859 on Mar 23, 2021 8:00pm
Hey Flamingo. I'm trying to learn how the Family thinks. I think that they're conservative, and genuinely feel for the hard work they put into the company, at heart. I get the PB, and LB dynamic. But what I want to know about is, the Family background. They could have thrown us all, under the bus to a certain extent. But they chose not to. They didn't do a reverse split, and they are ...more  
Comment by flamingogold on Mar 23, 2021 8:28pm
BBD859, understood...  bicente seems to also have some knowledge  as well, maybe he can chime in too.
Comment by bicente on Mar 23, 2021 9:22pm
Sorry guys I don't really have much to add except that bankruptcy was never going to happen , the family would never have let the company go belly up , lots of pride and even more cash to cover any bumps in the road ... there was a time not long ago I had some doubt that they hey might turn BT into another BRP but it's clear now they didn't want to screw over the shareholders by buying ...more  
Comment by BBDB859 on Mar 23, 2021 10:18pm
Hey Bicente. Thanks for that. BTW  That statement of yours is good.  " if they keep an adult in charge we should be fine ..."  LOL Cheers
Comment by johnney on Mar 23, 2021 9:29pm
BBDB859, what makes you think that the reverse split won't happen, hope not, or won't pivatized! Put this in mind, that their not out of their trap completally!
Comment by johnney on Mar 21, 2021 3:43pm
I do respect your opinion. Pablo!
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